SLC AFR display direct from IOx

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SLC AFR display direct from IOx

Postby Rod S » Mon Apr 07, 2014 10:01 am

I HAVE RE-WRITTEN THE TITLE BASED ON ALL THE FOLLOWING......


Jean,

This may be better in the "new boards" section of your forum so move it if I'm wrong, but....

SLC OEM modules will output the digital data over I2C which can be dispalyed in Tuner Studio through your IOx and logged etc.

But what I want is to have a very simple dash display without the laptop, RPi, etc on a simple (small) multiple LCD display.

Because I'm using at least three of them, maybe four if I can get it to work, I want a very small display.

I seem to remember Alan having some DIY display units available a while ago that ran off the 0-5V output but I can't find them on his new forum (I have posted a thread there too).

What do you think about a simple way of putting the 0-5V into a 10-20AFR display whilst retaining the I2C real data within the IOx/MS2 chain ?

Or maybe even a JBP boad that reads the I2C data to a digital display the same way my current TechEdges read to their digital display to LCDs but by RS232.

Probably a new board, hence my first sentence....

Rod.
Last edited by Rod S on Wed Apr 09, 2014 1:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: SLC analogue outputs

Postby dontz125 » Mon Apr 07, 2014 11:19 am

For a really cheap'n'dirty display, an LM3914 bar driver could work.
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Re: SLC analogue outputs

Postby Rod S » Mon Apr 07, 2014 12:44 pm

Actually Don, that's not a bad idea.

I was thinking about trying to get rows of seven segment number displays but simple rows of 10 LEDs would actually be quite effective.

Especially as the accurate data will be down the I2C.

Hmmm...
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Re: SLC analogue outputs

Postby jbelanger » Tue Apr 08, 2014 1:30 am

One of the problems I can see with LCD displays is visibility. It's going to be difficult to see correctly the numbers displayed under all conditions especially sunlight. The second is that the display needs to be driven by a processor and either a serial port, an I2C port or an SPI port so that requires code specific to the port type used and has an effect on the number of displays that can be driven at the same time. OLED or VFD displays are likely better solutions from the visibility point of view but they are more costly.

Using LEDs is probably the most cost effective solution if you only want a quick visual indication and you should be able to find LEDs that will be visible under most condition. You could even control the brightness through a generic PWM.

I'm currently working with one of the MSDroid guys (93white3400z on msextra) for another display solution but it would be overkill for such a basic application. It is basically his project so I won't go into details but there should be more information in the near future and it will be posted on this forum.

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Re: SLC analogue outputs

Postby Rod S » Tue Apr 08, 2014 7:23 am

Jean,

Yes, LED or OLED, I tend to use the phrase LCD in a generic sense.
My current TechEdges use an LED display that is fine in bright sunlight, they also use an ambient light sensor (though I'm not sure it's PWM).

Ideally I would keep them but they are digital, their input being TechEdge's own RS232 protocol (similar to Innovate but not the same) rather than a basic 0-5V.
The reason I'm looking for a 0-5V solution is simplicity - the SLC's I2C through your IOx and MS2 can deal with the data logging and accurate readings, I just need a simple real time display.
Ironically TechEdge's earlier DIY displays were a basic 0-5V input (although I think their 0-5V is a slightly different AFR range than Alan's) and I'm 99% certain Alan himself used to offer a DIY LED display kit but (if I'm right) that was all on his old website/forum so I can't find it. I have posted on the new forum but response times are, how shall I say, slow.....
Alan himself does sell a gauge that uses the 0-5V, as do many chinese eBay sellers (although their specs might not be quite so good!), but they are all in 52mm (2") round casings - I don't want that, I haven't even got room for them !!!

Don's suggestion is probably my optimum at the moment although I'm intrugued as to whatever this MSDroid project that you mention is all about.....
I'll wait patiently as you say it's predominantly his but it reminds me that Graham and I both bought a cheap chinky 7" tablet a while ago to experiment with MSDroid and/or Shadowdash (once the USB version was available) and Graham figured out how to fully release it's USB port (he emailed me how to but I never got around to doing it) but we never persued it so maybe I'll just try out MSDroid as an alternative to Don's suggestion.

Although it's possibly not really IOx related (I now think I should have posted this in the new boards part of the forum) I think that what the SLC is lacking is a simple multiple AFRs display board/module. You essentially support up to eight of them with your IOx carrier board but apart from having a laptop or tablet etc in the car permenantly, anyone who has eight can really only use that data retrospectively or on a dyno without spending a fortune on many 52mm gauges.

So, suggestion for a new board to benefit anyone who is using multiple SLCs - a digital display driver in modular form (to cater for different numbers of SLCs) either from the un-used 0-5V or from the I2C.
But if your collaboration with the MSDroid person is going to allow this anyway (even if you think it is overkill in my case), I'll wait patiently :D

Rod.
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Re: SLC analogue outputs

Postby jbelanger » Tue Apr 08, 2014 2:41 pm

Rod,

If you don't have the space for a single 52mm gauge then the project I'm talking about will not fill your needs. But if you have the space for one that has a configurable display showing what you want then it might be interesting to you. And there might be another version later on that would allow different configurations.

But I have been thinking about some sort of basic display option for the IOx. Something like having a set of 7-segment LED displays controlled over I2C with each one displaying one AFR value could be a good start. Something like the ones available here: https://www.adafruit.com/categories/103. I'll have a look at this.

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Re: SLC analogue outputs

Postby Rod S » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:20 pm

Jean,

Any more "permanent" 52mm gauges is not for me (although I'm still interested as to what you are up to with MSDroid....).

What I have in mind is like my current TechEdge LD02 "gauges", just temporarily mounted above the dash for tuning purposes without having to have a laptop or tablet resting somewhere to see what is going on.

The 7 segment displays you have linked seem to be virtually the same size as the ones TechEdge use in their LD02s so that would be ideal for me.

If you are thinking about this as an add-on for the IOx, can you please make it modular (as few or as many as anyone wants) or do a version like the IOx-OEM where I could make my own display board and just use your microcontrollor(s)/code to drive it.

Rod.
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Re: SLC analogue outputs

Postby jbelanger » Tue Apr 08, 2014 3:49 pm

Rod,

This is not related to MSDroid in any way. The only link is that Sebastien (93white3400z, the project creator) is one of the 3 MSDroid programmers but it is a completely independent project and code. I just wanted to note that he has worked on a relatively well known MS-related project. And the initial unit will be housed in a 52mm gauge enclosure so it would be more appropriate for a permanent installation but could also be mounted temporarily.

As for the 7-segment displays, it would likely just be code support initially with up to 1 display per AFR value. So you'd need to make your own display unit/board and connect it to the IOx (or IOx-OEM) I2C port. But it would only be compatible with a limited number of displays, likely the ones I linked and those using the same controller chipset. These displays are relatively cheap and available in different colors and formats and Adafruit has distributors around the world so it should be easy to buy them.

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Re: SLC analogue outputs

Postby Rod S » Wed Apr 09, 2014 5:22 am

Jean,

Re. MSDroid, it was just me not reading your initial post properly - apologies.

Having gone back and looked properly at your Adfruit link, I now see why you say code support only.....

How neat to have a purpose made board that lets the display be controlled by I2C.

There is a UK supplier http://www.phenoptix.com/products/adafr ... c-backpack and, although the price is a bit more than it should be at the current exchange rate, they still offer very good value. Currently showing as "sold out" but I've emailed them to find out when they will be back in stock.

(EDIT - found another UK supplier with them in stock - end edit)

And I agree, some basic display options for the IOx (whichever variant people use) will be of great use to people who don't want their laptop on all the time and don't want to go the the trouble/hassle of some sort of permenant "digital dash".
I presume the refresh rate will be better SLC/I2C/IOx/I2C/LED display compared to SLC/I2C/IOx/CAN/MS2/RS232/TS display ?

So the inevitable question, timescales for some code to test ?

Rod.
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Re: SLC analogue outputs

Postby jbelanger » Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:50 pm

I've moved this to a more appropriate forum.

There should not be much of a difference between the 2 paths in either latency or refresh rate especially since this is a visual thing. You might even want to slow down the refresh rate on the display to avoid having a blur of numbers on the last digit(s).

As for timescale, I can't say at this time. I'm already more than a month late for the release of the planned firmware update and I need to get some hardware. But I'd like to have it sooner rather than later.

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Re: SLC AFR display direct from IOx

Postby Rod S » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:01 pm

jbelanger wrote:I've moved this to a more appropriate forum.


Agreed, I've re-written the title to suit.

Re. the hardware, I'm going to buy it anyway (the first supplier who was out of stock is cheaper than the second but they have told me they will have it next week).

I've also ordered the ICs Don suggested so I can put together a board with both, bar display driven by the SLC analogue output and digital display by I2C once you are ready.

I've just got my original SLC carrier board working (well I think it is anyway, no sensors connected yet but every thing looks good in TS when powered up on my indoors JimStim etc.)

It seems I made a schoolboy error when I couldn't get it to work before or after the SLC address changes - I had originally hardwired 1,2,3 instead of 0,1,2 so when I added ADDR4 I got 17,18,19 instead of 16,17,18....
Tracks now cut and bits of wire soldered on the back of the PCB :D

I'll make up some proper cables tommorow for the sensors and prove it in the car before ordering my new SLC carrier PCB.

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Re: SLC AFR display direct from IOx

Postby jbelanger » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:16 pm

That sounds good. I hope you only changed 19 to 16 and not all of them...

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Re: SLC AFR display direct from IOx

Postby Rod S » Wed Apr 09, 2014 2:20 pm

jbelanger wrote:That sounds good. I hope you only changed 19 to 16 and not all of them...

Jean


No, all correct now, 16 upwards :mrgreen:
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Re: SLC AFR display direct from IOx

Postby Rod S » Sat Apr 12, 2014 8:14 am

Jean,

Just taking this request a stage further by means of a question.

You suggest initially just AFR readings. Now my question was based on SLCs which use the I2C bus and the displays you propose are I2C so it all seems logical.

But, in theory, can any IOx input (ADCs, serial, whatever) be read and then sent down the I2C bus to these displays ?

For example, could the Innovate serial data be read by the IOx as it currently is, but then also be able to drive the I2C based displays ?

Just questioning the principle at the moment.

The main limitation seems to be the Adfruit displays are limited to eight I2C addresses.

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Re: SLC AFR display direct from IOx

Postby jbelanger » Sat Apr 12, 2014 11:52 am

Rod,

Yes, any IOx data could be sent to the displays and you would indeed be limited to 8 of them with the Adafruit displays. The main issue with displaying other data is calibration. The analog data is always stored as raw ADC counts so to display in real units there would be a need to transform the raw data either through computations or lookup tables. And that could be different for each input.

AFR data, either from an LC-1 or SLC, has a known and fixed calibration (I use the same internal representation for both to ease their use with MS3) so I can do a single calibration to display up to 8 inputs.

I do intend to expand that feature once the initial version is out but AFR data seems like a good start. Also from a quick look at it, it seems like it would be possible to make a custom board with the same controller chip that would control 2 LED displays so the 8 address limitation would still allow up to 16 displays. I think that it should be enough for almost any setup.

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Re: SLC AFR display direct from IOx

Postby Rod S » Sat Apr 12, 2014 1:41 pm

Jean,

jbelanger wrote: but AFR data seems like a good start.


I agree entirely.

I don't know what else to say at the moment but if you can do the code to have simple digital displays totally outside of laptops/tablets/TunerStudio/MSdroid/ShadowDash etc and in realtime, all the time, at less than £10 per display, it takes the whole IOx concept forwards.

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Re: SLC AFR display direct from IOx

Postby Rod S » Sun Apr 13, 2014 10:54 am

Jean,

EDIT 2 - after my first rather stupid question.....

If this were to go forwards for other ADCs you say the transformation has to be from RAW values into real values either by computation or look-up tables.

At first I thought custom ini file but that was rather a silly question as TS doen't have to be running if the data is just down the I2C bus to the displays.

But could the transformation possibly be user defined, ie, could there be a way of loading the lookup table or whatever to the IOx flash the same way the non-standard thermistors for CLT/MAT etc are done in MS ?

Rod.
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Re: SLC AFR display direct from IOx

Postby jbelanger » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:15 pm

Rod S wrote:But could the transformation possibly be user defined, ie, could there be a way of loading the lookup table or whatever to the IOx flash the same way the non-standard thermistors for CLT/MAT etc are done in MS ?

That's how it would have to be done. And that's why I won't be doing it in an initial version so that I don't have to implement the loading of the lookup tables.

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Re: SLC AFR display direct from IOx

Postby Rod S » Sun Apr 13, 2014 12:43 pm

Jean,

Understood so apologies for all my annoying questions.

I realise there is a lot of work going on amongst many people for all sorts of displays, mostly some sort of digital dash (MSdroid, ShadowDash, TS on some alternate processor etc.) but I think the possibility of just driving a simple hardwired digital LED display direct from the IOx musn't be overlooked.

AFRs to consider first is exactly what I want anyway, anything additional in the future will just be the icing on the cake.

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Re: SLC AFR display direct from IOx

Postby jbelanger » Wed Apr 16, 2014 6:17 pm

Here is a littler teaser of what the displays look like in each of the available colors. The controller allows 16 different duty cycle values that can be set from the I2C bus and the pictures show the brightest setting (100% duty cycle) and the lowest setting (1/16 duty cycle). The pictures do not reflect exactly how its looks and green is definitely not as bright as the others.

full_bright_small.jpg
Full brightness
full_bright_small.jpg (76.59 KiB) Viewed 10342 times

low_bright_small.jpg
Lowest brightness
low_bright_small.jpg (81.8 KiB) Viewed 10342 times


This was done using a quick and dirty modification to the TinyIOx code. And these (including the TinyIOx) were powered from an MS V3.0 5V supply (with an MS2 and JimStim) but that was quite a drain on it and the voltage was dropping at full brightness. So the displays would definitely need to have their own 5V supply. It would also be a good idea to have an I2C bus extender on the IOx side and on the display side.

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