Looking for used lambda sensors, will trade for new one

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Looking for used lambda sensors, will trade for new one

Postby toalan » Tue Aug 09, 2011 3:58 am

Hi,

My name is Alan To, I design lambda controllers like SLC OEM used on Jean's IO extender.

I am looking for lused bosch 17014 and 17053 lambda sensors

-1x 5k miles approximately
-1x 10k miles approximately
-1x 20k miles approximately

The above 3 must all be in good working order, I will send out brand new 17014 lambda sensors (they are identical to the 17053)

I am also looking for 3 used sensors that innovate refuses to work with; e8 error. Again I will send out brand new sensors as replacement. For these 3 sensors, the sensor can not have been subjected to abuse, just normal wear and tear.

I will be asking you guys to sign your name on the sensor with a sharpie marker. I plan on conducting tests on each sensor to give an idea of accuracy vs age, if free air calibration is able to bring old sensors back to the accuracy levels of new. I also plan on investigating some users experience of shorter sensor life with used with innovate products. I will make a video of the testing of each sensor, and show the signed named on the sensor, that will provide some evidence that I am not BSing.

Hopefully Jean will allow me to post my results on his forum.

Regards,

Alan To
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Re: Looking for used lambda sensors, will trade for new one

Postby jbelanger » Tue Aug 09, 2011 9:13 am

I will gladly let Alan post his results on the forum. I think it's good to have more data from different sources on this subject.

Jean
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Re: Looking for used lambda sensors, will trade for new one

Postby toalan » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:16 pm

Thanks Jean,

Please pm me if you have a sensor that fits my need to trade in, or email me "toalan@14point7.com"
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Re: Looking for used lambda sensors, will trade for new one

Postby UnaClocker » Thu Aug 11, 2011 11:01 pm

I've got one with about 60k miles on it, from my old turbo van. Still works fine, near as I can tell. I really have no idea how many miles are on the one in my Omni, maybe 20k, maybe 15k.. I'd call it abused though. It lived through the alpha testing of MS2-Extra when it was first being developed. And it's seen 3 years of E85 use, though that was only about 2500 miles of it's life, give or take. I've got another one, that came from the junkyard, not sure how many miles on it it, but it does work too..
But, none of mine fit your needs.. Just thought I'd mention them in case you want some oddball..
'84 Dodge Rampage - MS3
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Re: Looking for used lambda sensors, will trade for new one

Postby ashford » Wed Aug 17, 2011 11:38 pm

hmmm if i knew which on is which i have about 5 of them. 1 was run with ledded gasoline and was problematic for the lc1, a 5k one a 2k one on a turbo that was regularly overheated(jaw reported 10.1 solid in boost) and one beat on with e85 that has seen 1900 degrees F. all of them still worked with jaws.
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Re: Looking for used lambda sensors, will trade for new one

Postby toalan » Tue Oct 30, 2012 9:30 pm

Finally someone sent in their sensor.

This is the email Lorne sent me:

"Hello Alan,

I noted your post on Jeans Forums where you were interested in Bosch 02 Sensors, are you still doing this?
I have a 17014, from an Inovate "LC1" kit that I experienced the common #8 error with, it would work some of the time but didn't like rapid changes of state. Probably about 15,000km on it.
Let me know if you are still seeking these.
Sincerely,
Lorne (aka R100RT on MS forums, with 1983 BMW Airhead motorbike project)"

I received the sensor today, and put it on my testing jig. I connected the sensor to my new product "SLC Gauge" which is based on the exact same principles and circuits as all my SLC products; SLC PP2, SLC DIY2, SLC OEM. The only tangible difference is that SLC Gauge does not have the free air calibration feature, so if 15000 km degrades the sensor accuracy it will be apparent and I will not be able to hide it (well I can put a special firmware that does free air calibration, and pull the wool over your eyes but I did not do that). The test gas I am using is 0.8 Lambda gas, this translates to 11.78 AFR for gasoline, SLC gauge is designed for gasoline fuels and only has a 3 digit display, the closer to "11.8" the display shows, the more accurate the sensor and the controller is. If the sensor is accurate then by any detectable metric the sensor is in good condition, and there should be tangible reason why the LC1 should throw out an error 8 with the sensor.

Bellow is the video of the sensor test with 0.8 Lambda gas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C5mL0CTT ... e=youtu.be


Result:
-Sensor + SLC Gauge shows ~11.8 without any free air calibration.
-With 15000 km on the sensor, the sensor is still as accurate as a brand new sensor.
-Sensor does not exhibit any problems during the test.

Concluding thoughts:
-I always knew that the bosch sensors lose very little accuracy as it ages, this is apparent in the sensor datasheet, this test does to confirm it, I was not expecting the sensor to show absolutely no signs of accuracy loss with 15000 km on it though/.
-The sensor looks to be in tip top condition, I have no idea why the LC1 throws out an error 8 with Lorne's sensor, mind you my LC1 which I have for my own testing routinely throws out error 8 with brand new sensors.

I hope Lorne chimes in on this thread, originally I planned on sending him a new sensor, but I will probably send his old sensor back to him along with SLC Gauge. If his old sensor + SLC Gauge is working without problems in the same environment where his old sensor + LC1 was constantly giving him problems, then I hope you guys can make your own conclusions.

Regards,

Alan To
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Re: Looking for used lambda sensors, will trade for new one

Postby jbelanger » Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:43 am

Alan,

That is very interesting to see that result. I'm glad you posted that. I'm not sure what to conclude from what you showed but it's certainly something to think about when you see all the claims from other wideband controller manufacturers.

Jean
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Re: Looking for used lambda sensors, will trade for new one

Postby toalan » Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:19 am

I am still looking for sensor, please email me "toalan@14point7.com"
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Re: Looking for used lambda sensors, will trade for new one

Postby R100RT » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:17 am

Thank you Alan, for your inspection and explanation on my sensor. I can add a bit more background information leading up to my removal of the "LC1" system from my project:
-Behaviour was starting to become unstable, initially I would note that the gauge had gone into error mode during trips, and then it was acting up on start up frequently.
-I checked out other peoples experiences (vast numbers on line, but best reference material was right on the Inovate site) and ended up doing a firmware upgrade that was recomended as a "fix".
-The behaviour of the "LC1" did improve and I felt I was out of the woods, for about another 1000km at which point the nasty behaviour returned.
-I felt I couldn't trust what the gauge was providing, and that was at a point in my project I really relied on the afr feedback to iron out some other issues.
-I pulled the system off my bike, and felt that a wiser approach may have been to just hook it up and use it for short periods of time and then pull off. I was also dissapointed with the Bosch sensor feeling it was perhaps not up to the task. Obviously removal of the sensor, or quality of the Bosch part do not in fact seem reasonable or applicable then.

I believe you may have a very nice solution to a problem that many have had a lot of trouble with, even here and for sure on the MS forums and discussions.
As well, if a free air calibration is not as necessary a routine (why not, oem's don't seem to have you rushing back to the dealer to have this done all the time) then that is also a step forward.

If you do send me the sensor and your SLC I will put it onto my BMW to try for sure.
Thanks again for your diligent testing and technology.
Lorne.
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Re: Looking for used lambda sensors, will trade for new one

Postby frederick » Thu Mar 28, 2013 7:29 am

Don't have a sensor to trade, I wanted to reply about the error 8 message.

The innovate's error8 doesn't have to be the sensor has gone bad, it can also be the composition of the exhaust gases.

"I've found that Widebands report erroneous readings when the gas in the exhaust is high in CO and also high in O2. That is an unnatural situation. HC levels are not a problem to a WB, its the CO that is the trouble maker. The problem is without a gas bench you have no way of knowing if the reading is correct or not. A gas stream of high CO and high O2 is a dangerous one, it means the engine is not making its power potential and it means there are going to be excessively lean areas in the chamber. So when you look at the plugs and they are not a dark enough tan for the AFR your running you can pretty well assume the engine isnt preparing the fuel enough prior to ignition.

The burn time determines the peak cylinder pressure. Its the peak pressure that is one of the principle determining factors for the production of CO into CO2. If its not high enough you wont get the conversion underway so the exhaust contains high values of CO. If the CO is produced with a high oxygen consumption then the exhaust stream will be low in O2. Now a WB theorist will tell you that the WB will use the unused O2 to convert the CO into CO2 etc and complete the burn to perfection and report a result. Well that's correct but the reality of this type of burn is that the O2 is used to make excess CO and forgo the conversion to CO2 because it just didn't get hot enough for long enough. This type of burn is far from correct as the theory books only want to consider. There isn't the normal correct balance of O2 to CO of a rich burn. The CO2 levels are low and the WB catalyst needs the CO2 to break it apart and get some O2 to reform the CO to CO2, the reaction of which is O2 neutral. So the WB has to get the O2 from the outside air and that causes it to report a high O2 requirement thus richer than truth.
I fail to understand why the industry doesn't educate people to correct this anomaly. The only manufacturer who is game to come close but they dont realize the reason why is Innovate, their system goes into error 8. But they fail to list this cause in their error reasoning help chart."


Source:
http://motorsportsvillage.com/forum/vie ... f=6&t=9920
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Re: Looking for used lambda sensors, will trade for new one

Postby jsmcortina » Tue Jun 18, 2013 7:38 am

That quote is interesting but appears to miss out the biggest possible cause for this.

If you are using a single sensor in the exhaust header/collector then it is easy to have excess CO and O2 if cylinders are running differently. I was setting up a car last week on throttle bodies and before we balanced them, there was a huge difference in EGTs between cylinders and the exhaust was popping.

In this case, the inbalance between cylinders was only at very low throttle openings. I have seen the same kind of issue with an electrical problem in one bank of injector drivers that manifested itself across the whole rev range and two pistons got melted.

So.. if a sensor/controller is able to detect this condition it would be very helpful to show it as something less obscure than "error 8"

James
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