12 cylinder sequential injection

http://jbperf.com/quad_ign_inj/index.html

Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby Tinkers Toy » Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:59 pm

i'll have to rewire those injectors . that would only cause me a headache later on but I agree they should still be firing the injectors. does setting H3 & H4 as inj I & inj J in Tuner Studio tell the ECU to use the connections at H1 H2 H3 & H4 as the additional injectors for 12cyl. I'll have to pick up a LED and Resister and check the output there, correct?
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Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby Tinkers Toy » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:12 pm

I may have found the problem, I had zero in position L in the firing order instead of a 9. To late to test this setting but i'm thinking that may have things messed up. I hope that is it! I'll check it tomorrow. thanks for the help.
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Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby jbelanger » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:12 am

Tinkers Toy wrote:i'll have to rewire those injectors . that would only cause me a headache later on but I agree they should still be firing the injectors. does setting H3 & H4 as inj I & inj J in Tuner Studio tell the ECU to use the connections at H1 H2 H3 & H4 as the additional injectors for 12cyl. I'll have to pick up a LED and Resister and check the output there, correct?

Yes, there is a note at the end of the page here: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/v10_v12.html. It should mention H1 to H4.

Tinkers Toy wrote:I may have found the problem, I had zero in position L in the firing order instead of a 9. To late to test this setting but i'm thinking that may have things messed up. I hope that is it! I'll check it tomorrow. thanks for the help.

That is likely the issue.

Jean
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Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby Tinkers Toy » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:00 pm

Tinkers Toy wrote:I may have found the problem, I had zero in position L in the firing order instead of a 9. To late to test this setting but i'm thinking that may have things messed up. I hope that is it! I'll check it tomorrow. thanks for the help.

nope didn't fix the problem. will have to check the inputs to these 4 channels tomorrow.
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Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby jbelanger » Tue Dec 10, 2013 12:20 am

You should be able to use the output test mode to check each output: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/testmode.html.

Also, it would be a good idea to post your msq file. There might be something in your settings.

Jean
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Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby Tinkers Toy » Tue Dec 10, 2013 10:33 pm

jbelanger wrote:You would need to check if there is a signal at the inputs of the board. The easiest way to do this is with an oscilloscope. If you don't have one, you will either need a multimeter with a frequency meter or you may be able to use a LED (with an inline resistor) between the board input and ground; at low RPM you should see the LED flash.

And you say you think it is correctly wired. How exactly is every input and output on the board wired?

Jean

Ok I used the LED & resistor and tested between the injector inputs on the 4 channel board and ground and no lights. when I checked between the ms3x injector outputs and 5v I get steady flashing as expected. I checked between the 4 channel injector outputs and 5v and confirmed no light & no flashing confirming my issue of those 4 injectors not working. Funny thing though, if I check between the injector inputs at the 4channel board and the 5v pin on my stim I get a steady lit LED. somehow the inputs are grounded? what next? Any help is very greatly appreciated.
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Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby jbelanger » Tue Dec 10, 2013 11:19 pm

That's not quite how you need to check things up. You need to connect the LED+resistor to ground not 5V, at least on the input side. This will work if you do the test on H1-4 but in the reverse way. The CPU does provide a 5V source when the injector should be open so by connecting the LED to ground, it will light up at that time (and not when it should be closed as it would when connected to 5V).

That is also why you see what you think looks strange when connecting to the injector inputs on the 4-channel driver board: you are actually activating the outputs by providing 5V to the inputs and that is why the LED is on.

So with H1-4 connected to the 4-channel driver board (as it should be), connect the LED+resistor between these connections (either at H1-4 or at the 4-channel driver board inputs) and ground and you should see the LED (or LEDs if you use many ate the same time) flash. If you see the LED flash at the input then you can try to put the LED between 5V and the injector output (on the DB9) and see if it flashes. But you have to make sure that the DB9 ground is also connected to the stim (if that's where you get your 5V from).

Jean

EDIT: To test the 4-channel driver board by itself, connect the injector input to 5V and connect a LED+resistor between 5V and the injector output. When the input is connected to 5V, the LED should light up; when the input is not connected to anything, the LED should be off. Be sure you connect the LED the correct way around or it will never light up. And again make sure to connect the board ground (besides the injector inputs) and the injector ground (on the DB9) to the same ground as your 5V source.

A bi-color LED like the ones on the JimStim is useful because it will light up in both directions: in green one way and in red the other way. And you can use these LEDs for your tests by using the 4 pins (2 per LED) available on the 10-pin header.
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Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby Tinkers Toy » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:17 am

as always thanks for your quick reply. This is how I assume the 4 channel board works, does the ms3x trigger the relays on the 4 channel board thereby grounding the output which then grounds the injector which already has constant 5v power? if my assumption is correct, I'm looking to check for 5v pulses coming to the inlet side of the 4 channel board? which triggers the relays to then send ground pulses to the outlet at DB9? I have the day off tomorrow so I have all day to Tinker. I'll let you know how the testing works out.

I checked between H1-4 and ground and no flashes on the LED and no ground pulses at the DB9 connector. while I was checking, even though I'm not doing spark yet, I checked the spark side of the driver board and those 4 inputs and outputs are working just fine providing 5v pulses at the DB9 pins. So if i'm correct the injectors should be ground switching and the ignition will be 5v switching? Does it appear to you that I seem to have an issue with the MS3X at outputs H1-4. Are there jumpers I may have missed?
Last edited by Tinkers Toy on Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby jbelanger » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:35 am

Just as a small correction, the 4-channel board components driving the injectors are transistors (in this case MOSFET) and not relays even though they do act in a way similar to relays.

Having said that, your functional description and what you want to check is correct. Of course, if you were using real injectors and not a LED for testing purposes, the injectors would be connected to 12V and not 5V but I think that you were talking about the test setup and not the real functional setup.

Jean
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Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby Tinkers Toy » Wed Dec 11, 2013 12:54 am

correct. I understand, since this car already had FI I'm using the original power source to the injectors, 12v makes sense, I never even checked it.
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Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby Tinkers Toy » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:09 am

jbelanger wrote:That's not quite how you need to check things up. You need to connect the LED+resistor to ground not 5V, at least on the input side. This will work if you do the test on H1-4 but in the reverse way. The CPU does provide a 5V source when the injector should be open so by connecting the LED to ground, it will light up at that time (and not when it should be closed as it would when connected to 5V).

That is also why you see what you think looks strange when connecting to the injector inputs on the 4-channel driver board: you are actually activating the outputs by providing 5V to the inputs and that is why the LED is on.

So with H1-4 connected to the 4-channel driver board (as it should be), connect the LED+resistor between these connections (either at H1-4 or at the 4-channel driver board inputs) and ground and you should see the LED (or LEDs if you use many ate the same time) flash. If you see the LED flash at the input then you can try to put the LED between 5V and the injector output (on the DB9) and see if it flashes. But you have to make sure that the DB9 ground is also connected to the stim (if that's where you get your 5V from).

Jean

EDIT: To test the 4-channel driver board by itself, connect the injector input to 5V and connect a LED+resistor between 5V and the injector output. When the input is connected to 5V, the LED should light up; when the input is not connected to anything, the LED should be off. Be sure you connect the LED the correct way around or it will never light up. And again make sure to connect the board ground (besides the injector inputs) and the injector ground (on the DB9) to the same ground as your 5V source.

A bi-color LED like the ones on the JimStim is useful because it will light up in both directions: in green one way and in red the other way. And you can use these LEDs for your tests by using the 4 pins (2 per LED) available on the 10-pin header.

I checked between H1-4 and ground and no flashes on the LED and no ground pulses at the DB9 connector. while I was checking, even though I'm not doing spark yet, I checked the spark side of the driver board and those 4 inputs and outputs are working just fine providing 5v pulses at the DB9 pins. After disconnecting H1-4 from the inlet side of the 4 channel board, I provided 5v to the inlet side of injector 1 and the outlet at DB9 provided ground and lit the LED .So if i'm correct the injectors should be ground switching and the ignition will be 5v switching? I seem to have an issue with the MS3X at outputs H1-4. Are there jumpers I may have missed? Any thoughts on why no output at H1-4?
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Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby jbelanger » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:18 am

You may have a configuration issue. What you might want to do is to post on the msextra forum about the issue and post your msq (if you're not sure what it is, the forum help does tell you: http://www.msextra.com/doc/general/forum_posting.html).

And yes the injector outputs are ground switching and the ignition outputs are 5V switching. They are basically buffer/drivers to protect the CPU outputs and allow a bit more current. These outputs are the same type as the ones available on the MS3X and are what you would use for logic-level coils like the LS1 coils (which I think is what you are considering using).

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Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby Tinkers Toy » Wed Dec 11, 2013 1:40 am

you have been a great help with my issue, your board is working fine and thanks to you I have a much greater understanding about how this works. I'll post over at the ms3x forum for help. Thanks again.
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Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby Tinkers Toy » Wed Dec 11, 2013 8:29 pm

I posted over at the MS3 site, Just to let you know I tested all the outputs ( I didn't see the slider in the select injector area that shows the additional 4 injectors, not sure how i missed that) using the test mode, all 12 injector outputs act as expected. Your board is killer. I also found out with further testing that injector G & H are not working either. the car was actually running on 6 cyl and injectors G H I J K & L are not working in run mode only in individual test mode. I agree I have to have a setting messed up in the configuration, I just can't find it yet. When I do, I'll post a follow up in case someone is following this, 12 cyl information is a little harder to find than the v8's.
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Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby Tinkers Toy » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:31 pm

resolved the issue on the MS3 forum. The manual for semi sequential fuel for 12 cyl is incorrect stating that you can wire it for fully sequential and semi-sequential making a future switch to full sequential easy requiring a settings only change. That is incorrect and the manual will get corrected, the code was actually written to turn off inj G H I J K & L so my ECU is working as expected. For 12 cyl semi-sequential fuel you must create the wasted fuel semi-sequential situation in the wire loom by wiring the two opposite injectors to the same injector output. Having corrected my wire loom MY CAR RUNS GREAT!!!!!!!!! I'm in the tuning process now and after only 1 hour it runs and idles better than it has since I've owned it.
Jean, you're the best, thanks to your help my car lives again.
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Re: 12 cylinder sequential injection

Postby jbelanger » Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:42 am

It's good to see that you've got things working well and I'm glad I was able to help a bit. And I also learned that semi-sequential is limited to 8 outputs so a 12-cylinders needs to use 2 injectors per output.

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