EGT measurement???

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EGT measurement???

Postby hobieboy » Tue Mar 23, 2010 3:04 pm

Hi Jean,
In one of the threads, you mentioned that there will be a 2nd board that will have AD595/597 on board for EGT meausrement?
When will that board be available? Do you have a price for that?

And, a separate question: would the high or low output drivers on the I/O extender be suitable to drive ignitors (requires TTL/open collector input) I have for COP implementation?

thanks!
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby jbelanger » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:18 pm

The board is available but I haven't publicized it since the firmware for SD logging is not yet ready but the other features of the logger board are supported by the latest firmware.

The AD597s are optional since the chips are rather expensive and not everyone will need 8 of them. The board with the 3-axis accelerometer, the USB port, the real-time clock, the SD card socket, the 3.3V power supply, the 8 generic ADC circuits (assembled for either EGT measurement or generic analog inputs other than thermistors which will require adding a through hole bias resistor), and all the connectors to connect the logger board to the base I/O Extender board and connect the EGT probes or analog inputs is the same price as the base I/O Extender at $125.

The optional AD597s are available at $10 each installed and there is a small discount if you get many: 8 are $70, 6 are $55 and 4 are $37.50. The optional GPS module has to be purchased from Sparkfun directly (http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/produc ... ts_id=9133).

So if you are only interested in the EGT circuits and the other features are less or not important for you, it might be more interesting to get the new board I'm developing (http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 67&t=35218) depending on how many EGT conditioners you'll need.

Jean
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby hobieboy » Wed Mar 24, 2010 1:40 pm

Jean,
Thanks for the resposne... You are right, your new board might be more suitable as I don't need the GPS/accelerometer (have those through my G2X datalogger :D ). But, would you be able to make a 6 channel version?

As far as SD datalogging, I think I can do this via MS3 so not needed on this board?

I'm also going to log 2 other things: IAT & MAP (pre-intercooler), so these will feed into the I/O extender base board?

thanks!
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby jbelanger » Wed Mar 24, 2010 2:00 pm

Yes, the IAT and MAP can be fed into the I/O Extender on 2 of the 8 ADCs and the 6 remaining ones can be used for 6 EGTs. You can also use the proto area for additional ADC conditioners if needed since there are 24 ADC channels on the CPU.

I don't think I will have a 6 channel version of the EGT board because that would mean having another case and other connectors in addition to the different board which complicates things and adds to expenses. If I knew I was going to sell dozens of those it would be different but at this time I don't know if there is even that much demand for the 4 EGT version.

However, I will be able to offer a partially populated board to make a total of 6 circuits but that won't be a proportional cost so it will still be more expensive per channel than a 4-channel or 8-channel setup.

Jean
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby hobieboy » Wed Mar 24, 2010 3:06 pm

Jean,
Sounds fair... I just want to make sure I don't need to get 2x4 channel complete units ;)

Another question about connecting this EGT module to I/O extender & MS3: the DB9 on the EGT module will have the output pins to the I/O extender. So that goes into the DB37 on the I/O extender? Then the CAN bus pins on the DB37 will need to go to the DB37 on the MS3?

I picture the EGT modules in the engine bay (close to the probes), while the I/O extender is in the passenger compartment. So, if I simply get 2 EGT modules from you without case, I can put them into a single one, then build a, say, DB15 cable to route it to the DB37 on the I/O extender? Would noise be an issue since the ADC conditioning circuit is on the I/O extender?
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby jbelanger » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:09 pm

Both the DB9 connector and the 6-position connector have the outputs which do indeed go to the I/O Extender DB37 on the ADC pins. And you're correct that the CAN bus pins are connected on the Extender and the MS3 (CANH to CANH and CANL to CANL).

Your proposed solution of putting the 2 boards in a single larger case and having a connector with wires going to the Extender is a good one. By the way, you could use a DB9 because you have 6 outputs and you need a single 12V input and a ground. As for the noise, it won't be more of a problem than any other analog sensor and this is taken care of by the filter in the ADC circuit. Of course, you don't want to put it near a known noise source just to be on the safe side.

The only thing that you'd want to be careful about is how exposed the boards and connectors would be in the engine bay. The boards can be protected with some coating if needed but the connectors are screw terminals which may not like being exposed to the elements. It may be safer to have the box in the passenger compartment.

Jean
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby jbelanger » Wed Mar 24, 2010 4:21 pm

I just thought of something. I think it may be a good idea for me to make the second board available as a simple EGT board with the only circuits assembled being the desired number of EGT circuits. That would be perfect for you and I'm sure you're not the only one. I won't be able to have all the circuits "à la carte" but this option does make sense and should be cheaper for those who want more than 4 EGT circuits.

I'll have a look at what the cost would be.

Jean
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby hobieboy » Wed Mar 24, 2010 8:56 pm

jbelanger wrote:I just thought of something. I think it may be a good idea for me to make the second board available as a simple EGT board with the only circuits assembled being the desired number of EGT circuits. That would be perfect for you and I'm sure you're not the only one. I won't be able to have all the circuits "à la carte" but this option does make sense and should be cheaper for those who want more than 4 EGT circuits.

I'll have a look at what the cost would be.

Jean


Jean,

It would be great if you do!!! With MS3's sequential fuel & ignition, it makes sense to monitor individual cylinders' EGT so trimming can be done on a per cylinder basis. Plus... my (I guess many others) EGT probes are only long enough to stay in the engine bay as they probe into 1" after the exhaust port, so this 2nd EGT board/case will likely be close or in the engine bay, while the base I/O extender can stay in the passenger compartment.

In my case, the EGT "box" will be mounted to the firewall on the engine bay side (of my 930) so it will be quite shielded from the element.
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby jbelanger » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:15 pm

The problem is that the second board is designed to be directly connected to the base I/O Extender board and fitted in the same case like shown in these pictures:
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So to use this board, you need to have EGT probes with wires long enough to reach the I/O Extender case. I'm surprised that your probes can't reach the passenger compartment since the ones available from DIYAutotune have 8-foot leads and this seems common (but I just did a quick search and shorter ones are also quite common).

So that means, it's either the upcoming quad-EGT board in your own case in the engine bay or the logger board (available now) in the I/O Extender case in the passenger compartment. Of course, if you already have the EGT probes with the short leads the answer is obvious unless you're ready to buy extension EGT wires which are quite expensive.

Jean
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby jbelanger » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:29 pm

Actually, I was a bit too quick to respond and it could be made to work. If you use a second case identical to the one for the base board but only put the logger board in it, you could add a DB-9 connector and take the signal from the AD597s to the ADC pins on the Extender DB37. However, you'd want to use the V1.0 board (which is the one pictured above) since it has a 12V input on the screw terminal block. The latest V1.1 takes it's 12V directly from the base Extender board.

So you do have an alternative which could be available now.

Jean
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby hobieboy » Thu Mar 25, 2010 3:32 pm

To make sure I understand correctly... my choices seem to be:

a) Use v1.0 "logger"board, but I'll need 2, so I can separate it from the base I/O Extender,
b) Get 2 x 4 channel EGT boards,
c) You're contemplating making a "new logger board" with only EGT option that can support up to 8 per board

And at the moment, my choices are a) or b)?

I have already got my EGT probes in place. Bought it from a race car supplies store way back when, and the length is only 3 feet. Hence, don't have enough length to run it back into the passenger compartment.
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby jbelanger » Thu Mar 25, 2010 4:02 pm

Actually, that's not quite correct, only b) is an actual option. And option c) is actually what I was proposing with the partially populated V1.0 (or V1.1).

You can use the v1.0 logger board with the 6 EGT circuits and you only need one board but you need an enclosure which would be the same type as the base I/O Extender. What you would need with this option in addition is a DB9 (or whatever you want to use that can carry 7 signals: the 6 EGT outputs and one ground) to take the signal from the EGT conditioners to the I/O Extender.

So the differences with this remote EGT setup compared with the "normal" EGT setup with the 2 boards in the same case are that you need 2 cases instead of one (one for the I/O Extender and one for the logger board), you need a DB9 connector to link the 2 boxes, and you would be using the I/O Extender ADC conditioner circuits instead of the logger board circuits (which means you have 2 circuits available once you use 6 for the EGTs; in the normal setup you'd have up to 8 EGTs and 8 additional ADC circuits). So the extra expense compared to a normal one box setup is the cost of one box, one DB9 connector and some wiring.

And the logger board with the EGT-only option would be $112.50 for 4 EGT channels, $130 for 6 EGT channels and $145 for 8 EGT channels. This is for the board and the installed components for the EGT circuits and all the needed connectors for the normal one box installation (you'd need to get a DB9 connector which I don't have). The case is an additional $25 and shipping is extra.

Hopefully that is clearer. By the way, this option with the logger board would be cheaper than option b).

Jean
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby hobieboy » Sun Apr 04, 2010 9:35 pm

Jean,
Thanks for the details... have just email you for options to get the EGT set up.

thanks!
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Postby jabbatron » Mon Nov 05, 2012 8:04 am

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Last edited by jabbatron on Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby jbelanger » Tue Nov 06, 2012 2:46 pm

Yes they are. You can PM me for details.

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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby m3manic55 » Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:08 am

Correct me if im wrong but this whole setup can connect to main ms3 board via the canh and canl channels? Also would I be able to retain the use of my ms3x board?
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby jbelanger » Sat Nov 10, 2012 11:07 am

m3manic55 wrote:Correct me if im wrong but this whole setup can connect to main ms3 board via the canh and canl channels? Also would I be able to retain the use of my ms3x board?

You're correct that it connects to the CAN bus (CANH and CANL). And it is completely independent of the MS3X so there will not be any impact on its use.

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Postby jabbatron » Sun Nov 11, 2012 9:31 pm

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Last edited by jabbatron on Wed Aug 26, 2015 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby zebbi » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:55 am

hey.i am in the process of swapping from microtech ecu to a ms3 with ms3x in my fc rx7.i currently run 2 egt and use the innovate tc-4 amplifier.it is daisy chained to the lm1 wideband and i log through logworks.as i understand it because the tc-4 doesnt have 0-5 volt out or can connection i cannot log it through the ms3 sd logging.i cant pm as only just joined.wanting one of your 4 channel amps and wondering the cost and shipping down my ways.just getting little confused as have spent couple weeks reading for ms3 ms3x setup which i am currently assembling.but i belive your setup is basically a external unit like tc-4 but with can connection to ms3x.correct?cheers
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Re: EGT measurement???

Postby jbelanger » Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:24 pm

zebbi wrote:hey.i am in the process of swapping from microtech ecu to a ms3 with ms3x in my fc rx7.i currently run 2 egt and use the innovate tc-4 amplifier.it is daisy chained to the lm1 wideband and i log through logworks.as i understand it because the tc-4 doesnt have 0-5 volt out or can connection i cannot log it through the ms3 sd logging.i cant pm as only just joined.wanting one of your 4 channel amps and wondering the cost and shipping down my ways.just getting little confused as have spent couple weeks reading for ms3 ms3x setup which i am currently assembling.but i belive your setup is basically a external unit like tc-4 but with can connection to ms3x.correct?cheers

Yes, it is somewhat similar but the unit shown here has a lot more features. If you're only interested in the EGT inputs, you might want to have a look at this one: viewtopic.php?f=14&t=829

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