EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

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EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby msoultan » Wed Mar 31, 2010 10:14 pm

Hey Jean,
I've been reading through the various posts on this forum and I'm still a bit confused on what boards I need to measure EGT. It seems in this thread (viewtopic.php?f=9&t=105#p659) you show two boards in its own case, and it looks like the upper board also has EGT inputs on the terminal block? If I get your thermocouple board, which you mentioned in this post (http://www.msextra.com/forums/viewtopic ... 70#p241970), do I need both of those I/O boards, as I'd also like to fit everything into the same case with my MS3? I think you mentioned in another post that it would be possible to fit it underneath the V3 board.

So, here's what I'm thinking - please correct me if I'm wrong. I have an aircooled VW 4 cylinder engine and I'd like to run 4 EGT sensors. I think it would make the most sense to use your new thermocouple board because then I can put that in the engine bay and run the signal lines back to your I/O board instead of trying to run everything back to the MS. When the MS3X is released, that will allow me to individually control the injectors for LOP tuning. So, I'm thinking I need the thermocouple board, your i/o board, the ms3 board (which I already have), and the MS3X board to deal with the injectors. Sound about right?

Eventually I'd like to do the GPS stuff, as it seems cool, but I'm not really sure just how I'd use it - but it does seem cool.

Thoughts?

Thanks!
Mike
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby jbelanger » Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:39 pm

Mike,

The I/O Extender has a base board which has the CPU, CAN transceiver, 4 VR conditioners, and the 5V power supply in SMD all assembled and circuits in through holes components to be assembled by the user for 8 ADC conditioners, 6 high current outputs, 3 low current output, and 3 active high inputs. There is also the logger+ board which connects to the base board as seen in the pictures you mentioned and it has up to 8 optional EGT conditioners with 8 ADC circuits (which can be used for other analog inputs if the EGT conditioners are not used), a 3-axis accelerometer, a USB port, a real time clock, an SD card socket and an optional GPS module.

So with MS3, you have a few options if you want to have 4 EGT probes. You can run the upcoming quad EGT board directly with MS3 and MS3X since MS3X has 3 analog inputs and there are 2 spare analog inputs on the V3 or V3.57 MS board (but you have to build the ADC conditioner for those).

You can also use the I/O Extender base board with the quad EGT board and use 4 of the 8 on-board ADC circuits. This has the advantage that you don't have to wait for MS3X and you also have the additional I/Os. Also, the I/O Extender is very well supported by MS3.

With both of these options, you can place the EGT circuits closer to the engine. However, the quad EGT board uses screw terminal blocks and the case is not sealed so you may want to do something to protect both the connectors and the board from the elements if you put it in the engine bay.

The third option is to use the logger+ board. This has the advantage of giving you a single box package for all the additional I/Os and it also gives you some additional features. However, if you don't want or need these additional features, it will be more expensive than a quad EGT solution. But if you want the GPS, you need to get this board or connect a 5V compatible module to the correct pads on one of the headers around the CPU (RXD2 and TXD2 on JP3) and install it somehow in the case.

As for fitting the I/O Extender board in the MS case, there are a few things that may not make it a practical solution. First, the I/O Extender board is 100mm wide and the MS case is designed for 4" boards (101.6mm) so the board will fit but it will be loose. It's not too bad if you put it on the bottom slot since it has a wider base and if the DB37 is bolted to the endplate. The main issue is that the DB37 shell on the loom connector will interfere with the DB9 shell even though the connectors themselves don't interfere with one another. Also, you'll have to make sure the screws for the components on the MS heat sink do not touch the components on the I/O Extender board.

So, as you can see there are many different options. You'll have to decide which one makes the most sense for you taking into account your setup and your current needs and what you think you'll be doing in the future. Hopefully I haven't confused you more.

Jean
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby msoultan » Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:50 pm

I just purchased four EGT sensors and I'll get those welded up as soon as possible :) Since I am running a second WBO2 sensor and realtime baro (which use up JS4 and JS5 on my v3 board), I'm guessing that's going to eat up the needed extra ADC, even if I get the MS3X - sound right?

So, it's looking like I'll need to get your I/O and thermocouple boards for EGT sensing, and then the MS3X for my injector control. I have a few questions:

- Where do I get the appropriate cases for each of these boards (I/O and thermocouple)?
- I noticed in this picture (http://www.msextra.com/forums/download/ ... p?id=13922) that there are 6 terminal block attachment points in addition to the thermocouple sensor inputs. Did you just put those there to replicate the same signals available on the DB9 connector?
- Am I correct in that it's ok to run the same length of wire from the thermocouple box to the MS as I use for the relay box to the MS? I'm probably going to mount the thermocouple enclosure right next to the relay box, so that's why I ask.
- How bad is the interference between the connectors. You said "the DB37 shell on the loom connector will interfere with the DB9 shell" - are you referring to the DB37 on your I/O board and the DB9 on the MS? Is it such that they touch, or that I need to file one down to fit so that they both fit?

...and that's all that I can think of at the moment...

Thanks!
Mike
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby jbelanger » Mon Apr 05, 2010 9:36 pm

Yes, there are only 3 ADCs on the MS3X so if you want 4 EGT inputs then you need something else. And the I/O Extender is a good choice :)

I do have cases for the I/O Extender and I'll be getting them for the quad EGT board also. And the quad EGT board is designed to use screw terminal blocks for the inputs and the outputs with one connector on opposite sides of the case. The DB9 is the one that replicates the output signals (and 12V/ground to power the chips). The DB9 is intended for use when NOT using the case and it will no fit the case (at least not readily).

It should be fine to run the same length of wire for the EGT conditioner outputs as it is for another 0-5V sensor. So what you propose sound fine (of course, you don't want to run the wires across the high tension wires and things like that).

The interference between the MS DB9 and the I/O Extender DB37 connectors is such that you won't be able to use both at the same time. The space under the MS board is exactly the height of the DB37 connector so you can get an idea using your MS wiring (relay) connector to see how much the shell overlaps the board connector. If you were using bare connectors on the wiring for your DB9 and I/O Extender DB37 you could use both but I wouldn't recommend that. One thing that could work would be to use an internal USB adapter and put it above the DB9.

I should add that you'd also need to check the clearance on the screws for the components on the V3.0 heat sink. You'd need to have the screw heads on the bottom and even remove the screw totally for the voltage regulator. So the solution of using the MS case is not really practical and is not what I would recommend.

Jean
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby msoultan » Mon Apr 05, 2010 10:27 pm

jbelanger wrote:Yes, there are only 3 ADCs on the MS3X so if you want 4 EGT inputs then you need something else. And the I/O Extender is a good choice


I was just looking at the specs for the MS3X and I noticed that it has accommodations for baro and a second WB02. Are those different ADCs than the ones I'm using now on the V3 board (JS4 and JS5)? If so, could I conceivably either move my baro and second WB to the MS3X and use the freed up input on the V3 mainboard for the 4th EGT, or I could just leave those on the V3 mainboard and use either the baro or WB input on the MS3X as the fourth EGT (both options requiring me to build the ADC circuit, of course)? If possible, I'd like to avoid too many boxes and excessive wiring.

I do have cases for the I/O Extender and I'll be getting them for the quad EGT board also. And the quad EGT board is designed to use screw terminal blocks for the inputs and the outputs with one connector on opposite sides of the case. The DB9 is the one that replicates the output signals (and 12V/ground to power the chips). The DB9 is intended for use when NOT using the case and it will no fit the case (at least not readily).


Ok, I just remembered that you're using those nifty molex plug terminals :) Are those going to be OK for thermocouple inputs? Also, on the thermocouple side, are you going to break those up into 4 plugs with 2 contacts? That would be helpful. Also, on the output side, having a separate plug for power and a separate plug for the outputs would be nifty as well..

It should be fine to run the same length of wire for the EGT conditioner outputs as it is for another 0-5V sensor. So what you propose sound fine (of course, you don't want to run the wires across the high tension wires and things like that).


Yeah, I figured I would just bundle the wires inside of my current loom and send 'em along their way over to the MS. I'm figuring if I end up needing the I/O board, I'll probably mount it right next to the MS.

The interference between the MS DB9 and the I/O Extender DB37 connectors is such that you won't be able to use both at the same time. The space ...


Hmmm... the MS3 does have the USB port, so I could conceivably use that instead of the DB9, but I'm trusting that it's not the best fit regardless. I'll await your reply regarding the ADCs and then I'll go from there. If I need to get the I/O board, I'll get the I/O board. Eventually it would probably be neat to have all of the other accessories... for what, I don't know, but I'm sure I'll find a need for them :)
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby jbelanger » Mon Apr 05, 2010 11:11 pm

msoultan wrote:
jbelanger wrote:Yes, there are only 3 ADCs on the MS3X so if you want 4 EGT inputs then you need something else. And the I/O Extender is a good choice


I was just looking at the specs for the MS3X and I noticed that it has accommodations for baro and a second WB02. Are those different ADCs than the ones I'm using now on the V3 board (JS4 and JS5)? If so, could I conceivably either move my baro and second WB to the MS3X and use the freed up input on the V3 mainboard for the 4th EGT, or I could just leave those on the V3 mainboard and use either the baro or WB input on the MS3X as the fourth EGT (both options requiring me to build the ADC circuit, of course)? If possible, I'd like to avoid too many boxes and excessive wiring.

There is a total of 5 spare ADCs: 2 on the V3.0 board and 3 on MS3X. Have a look here: http://www.msextra.com/doc/ms3/hardware.html. You can also have a look at the EGT configuration in TS and you'll see that you have 5 local ADC channels and then 24 CAN ADC channels. I totally understand the desire to minimize the number of boxes but there's not enough inputs for what you want on MS3.

msoultan wrote:
I do have cases for the I/O Extender and I'll be getting them for the quad EGT board also. And the quad EGT board is designed to use screw terminal blocks for the inputs and the outputs with one connector on opposite sides of the case. The DB9 is the one that replicates the output signals (and 12V/ground to power the chips). The DB9 is intended for use when NOT using the case and it will no fit the case (at least not readily).


Ok, I just remembered that you're using those nifty molex plug terminals :) Are those going to be OK for thermocouple inputs? Also, on the thermocouple side, are you going to break those up into 4 plugs with 2 contacts? That would be helpful. Also, on the output side, having a separate plug for power and a separate plug for the outputs would be nifty as well..

I hadn't thought of that but it might be a good idea and I'll look into it. However if I do this, I'll only stock the 2 contact plugs since that would simplify and minimize what I need to stock. And not only are they OK for thermocouples but they are used on a lot of boxes for this purpose. Look at the Innovate logger that DIYAutotune offers and you'll see this type of connector. And the I/O Extender logger board uses a smaller version (3.5mm instead of 5.08mm or 0.2") and James is using that for his Cortina with the DIYAutotune thermocouples. You can see his result in his post on the msextra forum: http://msextra.com/forums/viewtopic.php ... ad#p242677.

msoultan wrote:
It should be fine to run the same length of wire for the EGT conditioner outputs as it is for another 0-5V sensor. So what you propose sound fine (of course, you don't want to run the wires across the high tension wires and things like that).


Yeah, I figured I would just bundle the wires inside of my current loom and send 'em along their way over to the MS. I'm figuring if I end up needing the I/O board, I'll probably mount it right next to the MS.

The interference between the MS DB9 and the I/O Extender DB37 connectors is such that you won't be able to use both at the same time. The space ...


Hmmm... the MS3 does have the USB port, so I could conceivably use that instead of the DB9, but I'm trusting that it's not the best fit regardless. I'll await your reply regarding the ADCs and then I'll go from there. If I need to get the I/O board, I'll get the I/O board. Eventually it would probably be neat to have all of the other accessories... for what, I don't know, but I'm sure I'll find a need for them :)

Whenever you're ready, the I/O Extender board is available. The quad EGT board is not here yet but I should receive the first batch later this week or early next week.

Jean
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby msoultan » Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:40 am

jbelanger wrote:I totally understand the desire to minimize the number of boxes but there's not enough inputs for what you want on MS3.


Then I/O board it is!

However if I do this, I'll only stock the 2 contact plugs since that would simplify and minimize what I need to stock


Not a problem at all. Everything's a multiple of 2 so that works out.

Whenever you're ready, the I/O Extender board is available. The quad EGT board is not here yet but I should receive the first batch later this week or early next week.


When you get everything in stock, I'll be happy to order it all at the same time!

I'm excited! EGT has been the limiting factor as I don't want to burn up my heads again. Now I'll finally be able to get this engine dialed in!

Thanks!
Mike
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby msoultan » Wed Apr 07, 2010 3:40 pm

Hey Jean,
I have a question about your logger+ board - is there any reason why I couldn't monitor 4 EGT sensors and 4 CHT sensors? I have an aircooled VW bus so having the CHT sensor information would be awesome in addition to the EGT info. Is that something that board could do or is the circuitry built into that board specific to EGT?

Otherwise, is there a possibility you could create a CHT thermocouple board? I'd be very interested!

Thanks!
Mike
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby jbelanger » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:05 pm

If the CHT sensors are type K thermocouples then you can use the logger+ board's circuits. If they are type J (which is what I suspect they are) then you'd need to do something else.

Unfortunately, the AD596 (type J conditioner) is not available in the SOIC-8 package like the AD597. But you could use either the AD596 in the TO-100 package or the AD594 in the DIP-14 package and make the circuits in the proto area on either the logger+ or the I/O Extender. You might need to use both to fit 4 of them. But you could then use the ADC circuits of either board to get the data.

So that could allow you to have a nice and compact solution even though you'd need to run some wires inside the box. And it would have the advantage of having a single box instead of 2 or 3 like you'd need with the I/O Extender plus a quad EGT board+case and a quad CHT board+case.

As for making a CHT board, if I see that there is the potential of selling them I will consider it.

Jean
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby msoultan » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:18 pm

jbelanger wrote:If the CHT sensors are type K thermocouples then you can use the logger+ board's circuits. If they are type J (which is what I suspect they are) then you'd need to do something else.


Sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet! So that means I can do both CHT and EGT? If so, that would ROCK!

As for making a CHT board, if I see that there is the potential of selling them I will consider it.


I will check to see if there's anyone in the VW community that's interested. I will be promoting all of this very soon after I get it set up. I will also have a chat with the mechanics at my helicopter school to see if this is of any interest to them. They might be interested in the datalogging features of the I/O board.

thanks!
Mike
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby msoultan » Wed Apr 07, 2010 4:52 pm

This is exciting stuff!! How do I order the two boards and case? Is there anything else I might need?
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby jbelanger » Wed Apr 07, 2010 5:38 pm

So the CHT sensors are type K thermocouples? In that case, the only thing that might benefit from some adjustment is the output. At the moment, it's designed for a 0-1250°C which I assume is a bit more than what is needed for CHT. So with a 10-bit ADC that's about a 1.2°C resolution and with 12 bits it's about 0.3°C (but that 's optimistic due to noise).

That's probably enough resolution and would have the benefit of not having to require anything different for the CHT circuits. Moreover, the accuracy of the chip is 4°C and I hope that the tune is not so extreme that a few degrees would make the difference between a happily running engine and a blown one.

But if I wanted to optimize it for CHT what would be the maximum temperature you would expect to see the head reach, keeping in mind that this has to be a maximum that can't physically be surpassed (or so unlikely as to be the same)? I probably won't change anything due to the potential risk to the CPU but it would be good to know what could be done.

As for getting boards, would you want the logger+ with all the other features (USB port, accelerometer, real-time clock, SD card socket, GPS option (just the chip needed for the option not the GPS module itself)) or only the EGT/CHT circuits? I have listed the price for the different configurations of the logger+ board here and here. I'm sorry for the scattered information but I'm still establishing what are the configurations that make sense for people to buy and for me to produce.

Jean
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby msoultan » Wed Apr 07, 2010 6:04 pm

jbelanger wrote:So the CHT sensors are type K thermocouples?


Just confirmed and the answer is yes!

In that case, the only thing that might benefit from some adjustment is the output. At the moment, it's designed for a 0-1250°C which I assume is a bit more than what is needed for CHT. So with a 10-bit ADC that's about a 1.2°C resolution and with 12 bits it's about 0.3°C (but that 's optimistic due to noise).


Yeah, 2282F is about 4 times more resolution than I'd need.

That's probably enough resolution and would have the benefit of not having to require anything different for the CHT circuits. Moreover, the accuracy of the chip is 4°C and I hope that the tune is not so extreme that a few degrees would make the difference between a happily running engine and a blown one.

But if I wanted to optimize it for CHT what would be the maximum temperature you would expect to see the head reach, keeping in mind that this has to be a maximum that can't physically be surpassed (or so unlikely as to be the same)? I probably won't change anything due to the potential risk to the CPU but it would be good to know what could be done.


If you look at the MS2 and MS3 INIs, I set the high temp limits for the expanded temps to 450F/230C. Getting your heads to 440-450F/227C-232C is pretty much destroying them really fast. If it would be possible for you to set the limit at 600F/315C, that would be great because then it would provide the extra resolution. When I'm tuning, 380F/193C is OK, going over 400F/204C is not, so having that accuracy is helpful. As for EGT, I'd be looking at temps around 1200-1400F.

Having those limits be configurable might be beneficial. I've seen some systems out there that have configurable ranges - is that at all possible?

As for getting boards, would you want the logger+ with all the other features (USB port, accelerometer, real-time clock, SD card socket, GPS option (just the chip needed for the option not the GPS module itself)) or only the EGT/CHT circuits?


Let me know if I got the break-down correct:

The I/O board is $125

The base logger board (with the 3-axis accelerometer, the USB port, the real-time clock, the SD card socket, the 3.3V power supply, the 8 generic ADC circuits (assembled for either EGT measurement or generic analog inputs other than thermistors which will require adding a through hole bias resistor), and all the connectors to connect the logger board to the base I/O Extender board and connect the EGT probes or analog inputs) is $125. Add on 8 AD597s and that's $195.

The logger board with the EGT-only option would be $145 for 8 EGT channels. This is for the board and the installed components for the EGT circuits and all the needed connectors for the normal one box installation (you'd need to get a DB9 connector which I don't have).
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby jbelanger » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:00 pm

The AD597 gives 10mV/°C. The board has a voltage divider and the resistors are such (15K and 10K) that this is changed to 4mV/°C so that 0-5V gives a 0-1250°C range. If I simply bypass the voltage divider 0-5V will give a 0-500°C (932°F) which would give you a better resolution for your CHT even if it goes higher than needed. And if I reverse the resistors, that would give 6mV/°C for a range of 0-833°C (1532°F) which would be close to what you mention.

Those would be easy to do but you'd have to make sure you never connect the EGT probes to the CHT inputs because anything over about 550°C could mean a blown input or a blown CPU.

And doing configurable ranges is doable but not with the current board and I'm not planning to change the board right now for that.

And your breakdown is correct. You'd need to add $25 for the case.

Jean
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby msoultan » Wed Apr 07, 2010 7:17 pm

jbelanger wrote:The AD597 gives 10mV/°C. The board has a voltage divider and the resistors are such (15K and 10K) that this is changed to 4mV/°C so that 0-5V gives a 0-1250°C range. If I simply bypass the voltage divider 0-5V will give a 0-500°C (932°F) which would give you a better resolution for your CHT even if it goes higher than needed. And if I reverse the resistors, that would give 6mV/°C for a range of 0-833°C (1532°F) which would be close to what you mention.


That sounds perfect! I think aluminum starts getting soft around 1200F so I don't see myself going any higher than 1400F for EGT. As for CHT, let's give it a try and see what happens! I would definitely label things such that I don't mess things up. I was also concerned about the length of the EGT cables and having to put the I/O box in the engine compartment, but I just received the EGT sensors and they use standard k-type thermocouple extension wire, of which I have some extra. That will allow me to stick some Omega thermocouple plugs in the engine bay and extend the thermocouple wires into the car to the I/O board.

And doing configurable ranges is doable but not with the current board and I'm not planning to change the board right now for that.


Yeah, not a big deal for my install because it's never going to change. I did provide the manufacturer of the EGT sensors (exhaustgas.com) with your web info as he seemed very interested in all of this stuff, so that's where more configurable stuff might come in handy with different kinds of installs.

And your breakdown is correct. You'd need to add $25 for the case.


Ok, sounds good. I'm going to wait to hear back from the other thread on whether or not I'm going to get the other components and then I'll put the order forward. I'm super excited to get this going!

Thanks,
Mike

just for my own notes - things I'll need:
- Base I/O board
- logger board (1-4 as CHT inputs configured for 0-500°C (932°F), 5-8 as EGT inputs configured for 0-833°C (1532°F), other accessories to-be-determined)
- I/O board case
- v2.0 P&H board w case
- Signal interceptor board
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby Mario » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:49 am

Msoultan, did you ever finish this setup?
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby jbelanger » Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:58 am

That was a long time ago and I'm not sure Mike still visits this forum. But you can see his setup here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=177&p=1104#p1104

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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby msoultan » Tue Mar 04, 2014 2:16 am

Hey Jean,
I did get stuff set up, but I haven't used my bus much lately as I moved to the mountains and have been using my VW Golf - did you have a question in particular about my setup?
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Re: EGT Thermocouple board and odds and ends

Postby msoultan » Sun Jan 15, 2017 11:08 pm

Mario wrote:Msoultan, did you ever finish this setup?


I had everything installed and it seemed to work, but I never really figured out how to use EGT effectively for tuning. I'm sure someone that knows how to use the values would be able to make better use of them than me ;)

But everything worked.

I haven't driven the car in a long time - it's been sitting in the garage for 4 years or so - maybe one of these days I'll bring it back out when I have more time.
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