Push button start and shutdown

http://jbperf.com/io_extender/index.html
http://jbperf.com/io_extender/tinyIOx.html for the TinyIOx

Push button start and shutdown

Postby coizamora » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:27 pm

Jean goodnight! How do I upgrade the firmware to enable tinyIOX starting on the button? Could you explain me step by step? I need a CAN adapter?
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Re: TinyIOx and CAN-EGT

Postby jbelanger » Wed Nov 27, 2013 8:57 pm

You need to download the firmware as mentioned here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1102#p6078. You uncompress the zip file in the directory of your choice. Then you follow the same instructions as found here: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=301#p1828. But you use the "tinyioxdl_ms3.exe" downloader that comes with firmware (assuming your TinyIOx is connected to an MS3).

And be careful to read the note about disabling CAN polling before the firmware update.

You don't need any adapter other than what you use to connect your MS3 to your computer. The downloader talks to the TinyIOx through the MS3.

Jean
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Re: TinyIOx and CAN-EGT

Postby coizamora » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:33 am

Duplicated
Last edited by coizamora on Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: TinyIOx and CAN-EGT

Postby coizamora » Sat Dec 14, 2013 11:41 am

Hi Jean
Can the start button shut off the engine at the second touch?
Tks
Zamora
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Re: TinyIOx and CAN-EGT

Postby jbelanger » Sat Dec 14, 2013 12:11 pm

Zamora,

The TinyIOx doesn't control the engine so that would have to be done indirectly. That means it would have to control a second output that would switch a relay that controls the ignition and maybe the injection.

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Re: TinyIOx and CAN-EGT

Postby coizamora » Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:26 pm

Jean
It's possible using the same button and other output?
Should you teach me how?
Thanks again
Zamora
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Re: TinyIOx and CAN-EGT

Postby jbelanger » Sat Dec 14, 2013 2:32 pm

It is not possible without changing the code to support this. I will look at this to see how much effort that would involve.

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Re: TinyIOx and CAN-EGT

Postby coizamora » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:25 am

jbelanger wrote:It is not possible without changing the code to support this. I will look at this to see how much effort that would involve.

Jean

Hi Jean
News?
Hug

Zamora
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Re: TinyIOx and CAN-EGT

Postby jbelanger » Sun Dec 22, 2013 11:30 am

The problem is that cutting the ignition through a relay could mean a spark at the wrong time which is not a good thing. The best would be to do it by sending the MS2/MS3 a command to shut down the engine. I am in discussion with James about it but that's not going to happen immediately.

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Re: TinyIOx and CAN-EGT

Postby dontz125 » Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:12 pm

jbelanger wrote:The problem is that cutting the ignition through a relay could mean a spark at the wrong time which is not a good thing.

Assuming fuel is also cut, how is this different from turning the key off? A coil could be charging, an injector could be spraying, but it stops - NOW.
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Re: TinyIOx and CAN-EGT

Postby jbelanger » Thu Dec 26, 2013 12:26 pm

dontz125 wrote:
jbelanger wrote:The problem is that cutting the ignition through a relay could mean a spark at the wrong time which is not a good thing.

Assuming fuel is also cut, how is this different from turning the key off? A coil could be charging, an injector could be spraying, but it stops - NOW.

You're right and I thought the same thing after posting. If the relay were to control fuel and ignition or the MS, that would not change a thing.

However, it would still be better if there was a way to notify the MS and it performed the fuel and ignition cut. That would be even cleaner than what we have had up to know with any MS version and it would also allow what some have been wanting, i.e., a way to shut the engine off without shutting MS off.

I've contacted James about it and there is a very easy and small code change that can be done to MS2/Extra that would do just that and I assume the equivalent could be done on MS3 but I don't have the current code so I can't confirm. However James is not comfortable with introducing a code change to MS2/Extra at this time since 3.3.x is a release version. There is also the issue of having an external device having direct control over fuel and ignition.

I'll revisit this with James to see if there is a possibility of at least doing this on MS3 since this code is still in the alpha phase.

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Re: TinyIOx and CAN-EGT

Postby coizamora » Sat Jan 04, 2014 10:41 pm

Hi
Would not it be easier to add the option that when the rpm is greater than "X" and the start button is pressed a second output ADC was triggered?
Hug
Zamora
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Re: TinyIOx and CAN-EGT

Postby dontz125 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:30 am

jbelanger wrote:However, it would still be better if there was a way to notify the MS and it performed the fuel and ignition cut. That would be even cleaner than what we have had up to know with any MS version and it would also allow what some have been wanting, i.e., a way to shut the engine off without shutting MS off.

I've contacted James about it and there is a very easy and small code change that can be done to MS2/Extra that would do just that and I assume the equivalent could be done on MS3 but I don't have the current code so I can't confirm. However James is not comfortable with introducing a code change to MS2/Extra at this time since 3.3.x is a release version. There is also the issue of having an external device having direct control over fuel and ignition.


I'm astonished that it's taken so long for this to sink in - one of the biggest kludges in fitting the MS / uS family to a bike is the safety circuit, trying to figure out how to chop the spark and injectors WITHOUT killing the ECU when the tranny is in gear with the sidestand down. If this could conceivably be done by grounding (or pulling high) a single frickin' pin, PLEASE poke at James to modify the code!
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Re: TinyIOx and CAN-EGT

Postby jbelanger » Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:21 am

I've talked with James and CAN shut down (through fuel cut) will be there in the next release of MS2/Extra and MS3. Now I just need to implement a stop button (or some other input) feature...

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Re: TinyIOx and CAN-EGT

Postby dontz125 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:46 pm

... and spark cut on a pin ... ?
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Re: TinyIOx and CAN-EGT

Postby jbelanger » Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:34 pm

I would have preferred both fuel and spark cut (or better yet one or the other or both) but for now it is fuel cut only. It should be sufficient and safe to shut down the engine in almost all cases. The only event I can think of is if there is a stuck injector or some sort of fuel leak to the intake. Then that might be problematic to only cut fuel.

Did you have anything else in mind?

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Re: Push button start and shutdown

Postby jbelanger » Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:27 pm

I've split this from the original topic since it no longer was related.

I've talked with James and it will be possible to do fuel and/or spark cut so both would be cut here. What I would see is that it would use the same input as the start option and would require that the button be released for a certain time after a start and that RPM be above some threshold. The button would also have to be pushed for a certain minimum time before shutting down the engine. Using the button again to start the engine would re-enable fuel and spark as well as activate the starter output.

I'm also thinking of a "panic" mode where if the button is pushed many times in succession that means stop now. But I'll have to see what that means in terms of code and making sure the on-off transitions are really some intended action and not a mechanical issue.

That could also be tied to a tip-over switch where the time delay would be done on the IOx/TinyIOx side (or would that be a problem?). What would be needed for this? Is it an issue to tie that to starting or can you use some clever wiring if you don't want it to control the starter?

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Re: Push button start and shutdown

Postby coizamora » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:46 pm

Jean
A long button press can shut down all in panic mode...
This is only my idea
Hug
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Re: Push button start and shutdown

Postby jbelanger » Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:57 pm

Hug,

The idea is that when people panic, they lose the concept of time and they might not be able to keep the button pressed for a long time (because it seems too long with nothing happening). So if someone starts pressing the button many times in succession that would mean this is a panic situation and the engine would be shut down.

I think this is a natural reflex that people would have in an unexpected situation where the engine has to be turned off. Also, it is my understanding that this is what is done with new cars having a start/stop button from the manufacturer (I haven't been in a new car for quite while).

So the idea is that under normal circumstances, a (potentially) long button press would shut the engine. In a panic mode, the long press would still work but the normal reaction of the multiple presses would also shut the engine off. In both cases, that would be a fuel and spark cut.

But as mentioned I need to check some things before I implement this.

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Re: Push button start and shutdown

Postby dontz125 » Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:06 pm

I dunno about you cage dwellers, but when I hit the "Oh, crap!" button, I want that engine off NOW.

Jean - yes, the tip-over switch needs a timer, and the (Tiny)IOx would be a good place for it, IF the user had other uses for the IOx - $75+ is a bit much for a timer! :D I would suggest that the Push ON/OFF, tip-over, and Safety Kill should all use different pins. The On/Off has a built in delay (plus panic mode); the tip-over needs a timer, but must NOT have anything to do with the starter (you really don't want your engine cranking over when you accidentally drop the bike in the driveway ...), and like I said, the safety kill function should happen immediately.

Most street bikes use the kill switch to power the ECU; from a safety standpoint this is fine, but the ability to have the ECU on and the engine unable to run could be useful from a tune and test standpoint - saves pulling various fuses. Wiring the kill switch in series with the (sidestand switch + neutral switch in parallel) going to the Safety Kill pin would work nicely.
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