VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

http://jbperf.com/dual_VR/index.html

VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby suberimakuri » Sat Apr 19, 2014 4:53 pm

Hi Jean and everyone,

I had built a MS1 on v2.2 board ages ago running msextra fuel only. Never got round to installing the VR1.1 board bought at the time.
Am bringing it into the future with a MS2 chip (also on msextra) and wiring in the VR1.1
Going on a Toyota 4age so typical ND 24+2 distriutor, and COP's in wasted spark.
Most of the wiring information for v2.2 boards is for MS1 chip, and most v3 board information for MS2 or MS3 chips.. so had to piece together a few things.

Wiring as follows:
NE -> VRIN1
G1 -> Not connected
G2 -> VRIN2
G- -> GND1 on board (one of the main 4 pins).

VROUT1 -> R11 (not U4 P6 as per manual, I think because manual is for MS1 chip, not MS2)
VROUT2 -> JP1 P5
5V -> JP1 P8
GND2 -> D3 (second gnd on main 4 pins).

Spark A -> 660Ohm R25
Spark B -> 660Ohm R28

I've read less noise if bring the sensors common ground onto the dual VR board, and considering there are 2 grounds (so board can be cut in half), figured would be good as any?

Have installed a DB9 plug to get dizzy signals in and spark out.

Any suggestions or recommendations welcome.
I'll pull the MS1 chip out after power it up and pull VE tables, then when the MS2 chip arrives will put it in and test distributor.

Used this as a source for some of the wiring:
http://www.diyautotune.com/tech_article ... sembly.htm
Attachments
photo-20140420120824483~01.jpg
Top view v2.2 plus extra board
photo-20140420120824483~01.jpg (197.59 KiB) Viewed 6989 times
photo-20140420120846511~01.jpg
V2.2 board wired pre MS2 chip
photo-20140420120846511~01.jpg (209.07 KiB) Viewed 6989 times
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby jbelanger » Sat Apr 19, 2014 8:53 pm

That all sounds good. Bringing the sensor common ground to the dual VR board is not a bad idea but for this to be useful you need to use a dedicated connector pin and have it connected to the board ground only. And using one of the 2 ground pads for this is fine since both ground pads are connected together.

Jean
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby suberimakuri » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:11 pm

Thanks Jean, what do you mean by dedicated connector on?
The common sensor ground comes in to case on dedicated pin then jumped(black wire) to VR board ground pad.
VR board earth's via other ground pad via brown wire to v2.2 diode.
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby jbelanger » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:14 pm

suberimakuri wrote:The common sensor ground comes in to case on dedicated pin then jumped(black wire) to VR board ground pad.

That's what I meant.

Jean
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby suberimakuri » Sat Apr 19, 2014 9:17 pm

Sweet! Thanks.
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby suberimakuri » Sun Jun 01, 2014 1:14 am

RESOLVED
Max RPM on drill was only 250rpm and TunerStudio tooth logger showing one big, one small... which got us thinking something wrong. Turns out the colour wired to LM1815 for NE was not matched to the NE pickup in dizzy. Quick resolder and RPM at cranking now 200rpm off the starter motor. Success.

A few forums talk about grounding pin 14 on the LM for G2/G1, but not the NE... I haven't started the car yet so haven't revved right through but any recommendations?

------------------------- OLD POST ------------
Hi Jean,
Am having some trouble. Have RPM when spin dizzy with a drill as low as 50rpm in TunerStudio.
However, when the dizzy is in the car, TunerStudio reads 0 rpm and occasionally 8 or 9 rpm. Have tried all combinations of rising/falling edge triggers.
Can't see the tooth.
This is on 4age, so nippondenso cas. Thanks in advance,...
-------------------------
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby jbelanger » Sun Jun 01, 2014 12:46 pm

There should not be any disadvantage with grounding pin 14 so I would do it for the NE signal too.

Jean
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby suberimakuri » Mon Jun 02, 2014 3:16 pm

Thanks will see how goes.
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby suberimakuri » Thu Aug 28, 2014 6:31 am

The photos posted for output from LED's ended up being incorrect. Latest photo attached.
tested and COP's were firing correctly in wasted spark.
Attachments
20140629_145849.jpg
updated resistor wiring
20140629_145849.jpg (81.25 KiB) Viewed 6772 times
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby suberimakuri » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:12 pm

Hi Jean,

Car is up and running.
RPM seems stable, but when set timing fixed at 10 deg, it advances with rpm. A good 15-20 degress.
Have tried both rising and both falling edges. Haven't tried combination of the two.

Have not grounded pin 14 of LM's or put 0.01uF cap across G+ to ground as Ken from MSExtra suggests. I would have thought this would be more for noise than anything else.

The cops are on going high, (not going low as per config attached). If I put on going low then they squeal when not running (current auto protection circuit on COP's).

Any suggestions?
Attachments
2014-08-28_09.20.20.msq
config
(83.4 KiB) Downloaded 92 times
2014-08-30_14-01-55.msl
log
(271.8 KiB) Downloaded 91 times
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby jbelanger » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:17 pm

That's the typical symptom of the wrong input polarity. You either need to invert the sensor wires or invert the setting. But you need to ground pin 14 for this to be effective. This is not a noise reduction issue but a pulse generation issue on the LM1815.

Jean
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby suberimakuri » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:19 pm

Wow, awesome response.
Okay, as I'm using dual VR, reversing input wiring is difficult.
I'll swap edges and ground pin 14 on both LM's.
Do you suggest the 0.01uF cap on G2+ to ground?
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby jbelanger » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:20 pm

Do one change at a time. Grounding pin 14 is necessary. Add the cap after if you still have issues.

Jean
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby suberimakuri » Sat Aug 30, 2014 8:25 pm

Good thinking. Thank you. Will try and report back.
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby suberimakuri » Sat Aug 30, 2014 10:45 pm

Have ground both pin 14's.

Now it gets interesting. Wasted spark with 1+4 on spark A and 2+3 on spark B.
2+3 cylinders timing is stable.
1+4 cylinders timing advances.
Double checking ecu point for spark output but doesn't make any sense to me...
Also it runs very poorly and seems to lose sync with inputs set to falling edge. Rising edge is stable.

If change to use table, Spark B (cyl 2+3) behave as expected.
Spark A advances a lot plus the amount in the table.
Something funky with Spark A..
Cop's all wired the same.
Attachments
1409454717792.jpg
SPark outputs
1409454717792.jpg (1.55 MiB) Viewed 6753 times
2014-08-31_14.39.40.msl
log file.
(292.63 KiB) Downloaded 103 times
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby suberimakuri » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:09 am

So.
The timing gun was put on the 12v coil feed to get a pulse.

If the timing gun clamp is closed around #1 12v, timing advances with rpm.
If the timing gun clamp is open around #1 12v (with thumb), timing doesn't advance with rpm. Matching MS.

If timing gun clamp is closed around #2 12v, timing doesn't advance with rpm. Matching MS.
If timing gun clamp is open around #2 12v, timing light fires 1/2 duty, actual timing unknown.

In other words no problem after going to pin 14 grounded on both LM's, timing super stable.
Thanks for all your help Jean... bloody timing gun!
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby jbelanger » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:16 am

Some timing light don't like wasted spark. They act funny depending on the polarity of the spark which is not the same depending on which side of the coil the sparkplug is.

Good to see everything is working as it should but annoying to see that the tools you rely on are giving you a hard time.

Jean
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Re: VR1.1 + MS2 on v2.2

Postby dontz125 » Sun Aug 31, 2014 12:42 am

jbelanger wrote:Some timing light don't like wasted spark.

Agreed. If you're going to shoot a wasted spark engine, you either need to use a fully-digital device with a wasted spark / 'two-stroke' switch, OR a rock-stupid light that has no adjustments or feedback. A middle-of-the-road dial-back unit will get hopelessly confused.
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